[Slevin]

...cum ziceam..problema e ca la un demaraj mai nervos mi s-a aprins martorul de la sonda lambda si asa a ramas...nu mi se mai stinge. Stie cineva care ar fi problema si ce ar trebui sa fac?

...masina e fiat punto 1.2, 8v, 60'jde ponei

[cristian_punto]

Slevin, on Mar 15 2009, 07:54 AM, said:

...cum ziceam..problema e ca la un demaraj mai nervos mi s-a aprins martorul de la sonda lambda si asa a ramas...nu mi se mai stinge. Stie cineva care ar fi problema si ce ar trebui sa fac?

...masina e fiat punto 1.2, 8v, 60'jde ponei

nu ai decat sa faci un drum la service si sa ii faci un test, o sa vezi care e buba.

Nu mai cita mesaul anterior in totalitate, nu are sens!

This post has been edited by NicuBarbu: 15 March 2009 - 05:30 PM

[gabrielstan]

si eu am aceeasi problema, dupa o anduranta sustinuta la 170km/h constant s-a aprins sonda si asa a ramas, am fost la service si la tester a iesit ca sonda e pe duca, deci momentan in motorul meu 1.2 16V intra mai mult combustibil decat decat ar trebui, ratia carburant- aer s-a dus si consumul a crescut semnificativ, in plus am inteles ca daca nu rezolv problema o sa-mi afecteze si catalizatorul, momentan caut sonda lambda, daca stie cineva de unde pot cumpara una, de preferabil noua si la un pret rezonabil sa-mi dea un PM, am un punto sporting 1.2 16V 80 Cp din 2001

[mariusl82]

Daca e martorul sub forma de motor(numit EOBD) atunci :
- cu lumina continua - indica o defectiune la sistemul
de alimentare/aprindere, cu posibile consecinte precum
crenterea emsiilor toxice, scaderea
performantei,manevrabilitate dificila ni nivel ridicat de
consum.
-cu lumina intermitenta - posibila deteriorare a catalizatorului
(consultati "Sistemul EOBD" din acest capitol).
Daca semnalul luminos clipente, trebuie redusa
viteza vehiculului pana la stingerea semnalului luminos;
continuati-va calatoria cu viteza moderata, ancerc`nd
sa evitati situatiile care ar putea cauza reaprinderea
semnalului ni contactati urgent o Reprezentanta Fiat.

Tu si spus ca sta tot timpul aprins, in cazul asta nu e snda lambda, e ceva fie cu injectia sau aprinderea, .... eu zic sa-ti faci cat mai repede o diagnoza sa vezi exact despre ce e vorba

[fiatUNOd]

Slevin, on Mar 15 2009, 07:54 AM, said:

.. mi s-a aprins martorul de la sonda lambda si asa a ramas...nu mi se mai stinge. ...

In mod normal ai 2 sonde..in dreapta mototului cum privesti din fata, "pe cutia de viteze", ai cele 2 mufe de contact ale celor 2 sonde.
Desfa-le, curata-le cu spray de contact.
Asambleaza-le la loc.
Da cheie si vezi ce se intimpla.
Bafta

This post has been edited by fiatunod: 16 March 2009 - 08:51 AM

[Slevin]

fiatunod, on Mar 16 2009, 08:51 AM, said:

In mod normal ai 2 sonde..in dreapta mototului cum privesti din fata, "pe cutia de viteze", ai cele 2 mufe de contact ale celor 2 sonde.
Desfa-le, curata-le cu spray de contact.

...suna destul de usoara treaba...o sa incer sa vad care e treaba....daca nu, service-ul e directia...ms

LE..... cand am ajuns la masina....am ramas ....credeam ca o sa fie mai usor sa gasit sonda..(ceva de genu...o sageata pe care sa scrie "spre sonda lambda")....o sa pun cateva poze...poate reuseste careva sa ma lamureasca exact care e....

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[pinball27]

Decupleaza sondele din mufe si curata contactele . Vezi ca au o siguranta din plastic .

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[cristian_punto]

mariusl82, on Mar 15 2009, 07:20 PM, said:

Tu si spus ca sta tot timpul aprins, in cazul asta nu e snda lambda, e ceva fie cu injectia sau aprinderea, .... eu zic sa-ti faci cat mai repede o diagnoza sa vezi exact despre ce e vorba

am patit si io cu sonda si martoru statea tot timpu aprins, dupa schimbare, s-a stins.

[Slevin]

cristian_punto, on Mar 17 2009, 02:59 PM, said:

dupa schimbare, s-a stins.

Si cat te-a costat schimbarea+manopera...totalul? Am curatat contactele(care aratau ca noi), dar tot aprins e becul.

[gabrielstan]

sunt si eu curios de pret, adica nu vreau sa dau 6-7 sute de lei pentru schimbarea unei sonde, inclusiv manopera, e cam mult, parerea mea

[cristian_punto]

Slevin, on Mar 17 2009, 04:12 PM, said:

Si cat te-a costat schimbarea+manopera...totalul?

pai sonda la vremea aia..in august 2008, 4 mil, si manopera nush sa zic, pt ca am schimbat si o scala abs, tamburi, totul vreo 90 lei

[JynX]

cristian_punto, on Mar 17 2009, 07:04 PM, said:

pai sonda la vremea aia..in august 2008, 4 mil, si manopera nush sa zic, pt ca am schimbat si o scala abs, tamburi, totul vreo 90 lei

si daca merge asa cu martorul aprins si cu eroarea aia la sonda, ce se poate intampla cel mai rau?

Nu mai cita mesajul anterior in totalitate!

This post has been edited by NicuBarbu: 18 March 2009 - 12:45 AM

[robylup]

cel mai rau cred ca se duce catalizatorul

[JynX]

roby_lup, on Mar 17 2009, 09:32 PM, said:

cel mai rau cred ca se duce catalizatorul

de ce intreb ca eu mi-am trimis ecu la mihai sa ma scape de eroarea cu bobina de inductie,adica sa repare ecu...
si am ramas cu eroarea la sonda... si n-as mai da inca 4 mil si luna asta...

Nu mai cita mesajul anterior in totalitate!

This post has been edited by NicuBarbu: 18 March 2009 - 12:44 AM

[mariusl82]

dupa ce ti-ai montat ECU inapoi ai sters eroarea??

[mihai_psc]

Salutare, i-mi poate spune si mie cineva care-i martorul de la sonda lambda, inca nu s-a aprins nimic la mine doar sunt curios.

[Slevin]

mihai_psc, on Mar 17 2009, 11:25 PM, said:

martorul de la sonda lambda

Asta e...

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[mihai_psc]

Slevin, on Mar 18 2009, 12:27 AM, said:

Asta e...

Merci, nu stiam ca asa ii zice , dar asta se aprinde si la bobinele de inductie cand incep sa cada.

[mariusl82]

Poarta numele si de EOBD
Sistemul EOBD (European On Bord Diagnosis) permite
diagnosticarea continua a componentelor vehiculului în
ceea ce priveste emisiile.
De asemnea il alerteaza pe sofer, prin aprinderea
semnalului (la unele modele cu un text insotitor pe
display) de pe tabloul de bord atunci cand aceste componente
si-au pierdut din eficienta.
Obiectivele sunt:
-pastrarea eficienei sistemului sub control;
- avertizarea soferului atunci cand o defectiune
cauzeaza depasirea nivelului de emisii toxice stabilit de
legile europene;
- avertizarea atunci cand unul din componente trebuie
inlocuit;
Sistemul e prevazut si cu un dispozitiv de diagnosticare
care face posibila citirea codurilor de eroare memorate
de catre unitatea de control, impreuna cu un set
de parametri specifici pentru operararea si diagnosticarea
motorului.Aceasta verificare este posibil de efectuat
si de agentii de trafic.

This post has been edited by mariusl82: 18 March 2009 - 07:36 AM

[JynX]

mariusl82, on Mar 17 2009, 10:41 PM, said:

dupa ai sters eroarea??

Da. Am sters eroarea. Si cand pornea motorul aparea la loc.

[Catalin Punto]

Salutare tuturor!
Am patit-o si eu cu sonda asta...Bine...inca nu am trecut peste problema (in sensul ca pana la urma tot trebuie sa schimb a II-a sonda), dar pot sa va dau cateva informatii despre cum sa faceti cateva masuratori in parcare.Am informatiile din Vivid W...Pentru cei care se descurca cu un multimetru, iata ce scrie acolo:

The oxygen sensor is exposed to exhaust gas flow. It monitors the oxygen content of the exhaust gases. A low oxygen content (rich mixture) increases the output voltage of the sensor. In this way a constantly updated air/fuel ratio is returned to the control unit.
Supply voltage heating element: 12 V
resistance heating element: 3 - 15 ohms (20 °C)
signal wire: black
signal ground wire: grey
heating element wires: white
waveform information: both waveforms hot engine running at idle.
Diagnostics:
Check connector(s): Inspect the connector(s) and if necessary clean or fix them to make sure the connection is good.
Heating element:
Check resistance:
Turn ignition off. Remove connector from sensor wires.
Measure resistance between pins 4 and 3 in the oxygen sensor connector. Compare with specified resistance.
Check supply voltage:
Turn ignition off. Remove connector from sensor wires. Start the engine. Measure voltage between connector terminal 4 and the negative terminal of the battery. It should equal battery voltage. If not check wiring, fuse and/or relay or power supply unit.
Check connection to ECU:
Turn ignition off. Remove connector from sensor wires and ECU.
Measure resistance between connector terminals 1, 2, 3 and corresponding terminals in ECU connector. Should be < 1 ohm. If not check wiring.

Acum am si eu o nedumerire, daca poate cineva sa ma lamureasca:de ce sonda 1 (de dinainte de catalizator) este alimentata cu 14 volti, iar sonda 2 (cea la care am probleme) este alimentata cu 12 volti?

Cand am fost la citirea calculatorului(nu la reprezentanta), tipul mi-a spus sa schimb vitezele 2 si 3 la turatii mai mari, pentru ca se afuma sondele si in timp, se distrug sigur.Eu ii ascult sfatul, momentan, sa vad ce se intampla saptamana asta, deoarece sonda inca e...sa zic murdara.... Daca tot insista in erori o sa o dau jos si sa incerc o curatare.

Bafta la masuratori!

[fiatUNOd]

caut de un secol schema pinilor la sonda 2.
am problema de contact pe circuitul de incalizare (zice testerul) si mai tre sa le curat din cind in cind..
nestiind care e..le i-au la rind pe toate..acu e mai scurta treaba:-)
PS
de obicei la sonda 2 , 90% din erori provin de la circuitul de incalzire.
daca e dus, acu ca tot stim valoarea rezistentei interne, o putem sunta

[Catalin Punto]

NU suntati rezistenta de incalzire!!! Daca faceti asta inseamna ca scurtcircuitati sarcina care o da calculatorul pe ea! e ca si cum la un amplificator audio a-ti scurtcicuita iesirea de la boxe!!! Veti arde calculatorul!!!
Alte date despre sonda buclucasa...
Oxygen sensors generally have a lifespan of between 48,000 – 80,000 km (30,000 to 50,000 miles). As the sensor ages its response time slows down.

CAUTION: Never use an ohmmeter on a zirconium sensor as it might damage it.

Use an oscilloscope to check that the response time and voltage change are within specification.
Use a voltmeter to check the voltage.
Check that the opening on the tip is not blocked or partially blocked with carbon deposits.
Check the operation of the heating circuit.
Check the continuity and condition of the connections.

Alte date cu referire la modul de functionar eal unei sonde lambda:

Identification
There are two different types of oxygen sensor, the most commonly used is the Zirconium type and less commonly used is the Titanium type. Figure 1 is an example of a commonly used oxygen sensor.

Figure 1The sensor is usually found in the exhaust pipe before the catalytic converter. In later cars there may be another one directly after the catalytic converter. In V configuration engines there may be one or more oxygen sensors per cylinder bank.

The four most commonly used wire configurations for the Zirconium sensor are shown below.

Single wire (figure 2)
Figure 2Signal (black)
Two wire (figure 3)
Figure 3Signal (black)
Ground (grey or white)
Three wire (figure 4)
Figure 4Signal (black)
Heater (white)
Heater (white)
Four wire (figure 5)
Figure 5Signal (black)
Ground (grey)
Heater (white)
Heater (white)
The two most commonly used wire configurations for the Titanium sensor are shown below.

Three wire (figure 6)
Figure 6Reference out (black)
Reference in and Heater + (red)
Heater – (white)
Four wire (figure 7)
Figure 7Reference out (black)
Heater + (red)
Heater – (white)
Reference in (yellow)
Function
Zirconium
An oxygen sensor compares the oxygen content of the exhaust gasses with that of a reference atmosphere contained within the sensor (figure 8). The exhaust gas passes over the outside of a gas impermeable ceramic made from zirconium dioxide; the reference air is contained on the inside. Electrodes are connected to both sides of the ceramic material and the voltage generated tells the ECU whether the combusted air / fuel mixture is rich (lambda less than 1) or lean (lambda greater than 1). The ECU constantly monitors the signal and adjusts the fuelling so the combusted fuel / air mixture is correct (lambda equal to 1).

Figure 8Exhaust pipe
Housing / contact
Ceramic sensor
Contacts
Reference air
Electrodes
Porous protective coating
Exhaust gas
An oxygen sensor only starts to operate correctly when the ceramic material is above 350 °C. Early sensors had to wait until the exhaust gasses heated the sensor to its operating temperature; later sensors have an in-built electrical heater, so the operating temperature is reached much earlier.

Titanium
The construction of a Titanium oxygen sensor is very similar to that of a zirconium one, but instead of producing a voltage change due to the oxygen content in the exhaust, it changes resistance instead.

Figure 9 shows a cutaway drawing of a typical oxygen sensor with a built-in heater element.

Figure 9Connection wires
Internal contacts
Ceramic support
Housing
Heater element
Slotted tube
Reference air
Ceramic sensor
Washer
Specification
Zirconium
Generally two oxygen sensors are used to monitor the exhaust gas, one is a broadband type and the other is a two-point type. The broadband sensor is positioned before the catalytic converter and the two-point sensor is positioned after the catalytic converter. Both types of sensor have very a similar construction but their outputs are different. The ECU uses the first sensor to roughly set the air / fuel mixture and the second sensor to fine tune the mixture. By taking readings from before and after the catalytic converter, the ECU can also monitor the operation of the catalytic converter.

Figure 10Figure 10 demonstrates the voltage produced by a broadband oxygen sensor as the oxygen content of the exhaust changes. A is the response for a rich mixture and B is the response for a lean mixture.

Figure 11Figure 11 demonstrates the voltage change produced by a two-point oxygen sensor as the oxygen content of the exhaust gas changes. A is the response for a rich mixture and B is the response for a lean mixture.

Titanium
Figure 12Figure 12 demonstrates the resistance change produced by a titanium oxygen sensor as the oxygen content of the exhaust gas changes. A is the response for a rich mixture and B is the response for a lean mixture.

Scope traces
Zirconium
Figure 13The simplified circuit diagram demonstrates the oxygen sensor measuring system (figure 13). The output voltage of the sensor is fed into an analogue to digital converter A where the digital output is compared with an internal reference table held in the ECU. The ECU adjusts the signal to the injectors to maintain the correct fuel / air mixture. Device B controls the temperature of the sensor, usually, by varying the mark – space ratio of the signal.

An oscilloscope can often be a useful tool in diagnosing faults.

Voltage measurement is made between X and Y.

Figure 14Figure 14 shows a simple voltage waveform whose overall shape is common to most zirconium oxygen sensors.

Titanium
Figure 15The simplified circuit diagram demonstrates the oxygen sensor measuring system (figure 15). The oxygen sensor forms part of a voltage divider circuit in conjunction with an internal resistor R. As the oxygen content of the exhaust changes, so does the resistance of the sensor, and therefore the voltage across it. The voltage is fed into an analogue to digital converter B where the digital output is compared with an internal reference table held in the ECU. The ECU adjusts the signal to the injectors to maintain the correct fuel / air mixture.

The voltage supplied to the divider circuit has to be extremely stable as any change would be misinterpreted by the ECU as a change of oxygen content in the exhaust. To maintain a stable voltage, the varying battery voltage is fed into a regulator circuit A. The regulator circuit maintains its output voltage regardless of the changing load of the voltage divider circuit and any changes in the battery voltage.

Device C controls the temperature of the sensor, usually, by varying the mark – space ratio of the signal.

Figure 16An oscilloscope can often be a useful tool in diagnosing faults. Voltage measurement is made between X and Y.

Figure 16 shows a simple voltage waveform whose overall shape is common to most titanium oxygen sensors.

The temperature of the sensor is usually controlled by varying the mark – space ratio of the signal given to the heating element.

Figure 17Figure 17 shows a simple waveform where the sensor is being heated rapidly.

Figure 18Figure 18 shows a simple waveform where the sensor is being heated slowly.

Diagnosis
Zirconium
Oxygen sensors generally have a lifespan of between 48,000 – 80,000 km (30,000 to 50,000 miles). As the sensor ages its response time slows down.

CAUTION: Never use an ohmmeter on a zirconium sensor as it might damage it.

Use an oscilloscope to check that the response time and voltage change are within specification.
Use a voltmeter to check the voltage.
Check that the opening on the tip is not blocked or partially blocked with carbon deposits.
Check the operation of the heating circuit.
Check the continuity and condition of the connections.
Titanium
Oxygen sensors generally have a lifespan of between 48,000 – 80,000 km (30,000 to 50,000 miles). As the sensor ages its response time slows down.

Use an oscilloscope to check that the response time and voltage change are within specification.
Use an ohmmeter to check the resistance.
Check that the opening on the tip is not blocked or partially blocked with carbon deposits.
Check the operation of the heating circuit.
Check that there is 5 V with respect to battery earth on the ECU terminal supplying the sensor, with the sensor disconnected.
Check the continuity and condition of the connections.

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[fiatUNOd]

Catalin Punto, on Apr 8 2009, 09:08 AM, said:

NU suntati rezistenta de incalzire!!!

eu vorbeam si de o rezistenta a carei valoare se stie

[alexstaicu]

si la mine s-a aprins de curand martorul, deobicei se aprindea cand bagam benzina proasta (petrom 95, mol 95) si se stingea cand ii dadeam top 99petrom sau 95 omv. Acum nu s-a mai stins... masina merge excelent nu a crescut nici consumul, demarajul e la fel. e 1.2 16 v 80cp

[rahau_constantin]

Daca e vorba de ledul galben, cred c-ar tb. sa-i faci o diagnosticare si in functie de eroare (erori) sa rezolvi problema. In cazul in care ramane continuu aprins inseamna ca ceva nu este in regula. Aparent masina fct. bine, dar, in timp, pot interveni alte probleme. Oricum, consumul de combustibil e cu siguranta mai ridicat.

[Slevin]

...mie mi s-a aprins cand am facut un plin de "evobenzina" de la mol....dar am fost la service la tester cu ea....si mi-a zis ala ca am avut un rateu in cilindru 1, si o eroare la sonda 1 bancul 2..ceva de genu...le-a sters si totul e ok....
...btw. mie ledul mi s-a stins intre timp, inainte sa ma duc la service...dar am zis ca cel mai bine e sa ma duc sa vad, si benzina care o folosesc, care mi-a recomandat-o, tipul de la service e "Carrera 100" de la Petrom..merge foarte bine

[Catalin Punto]

MIL-ul cand se aprindea, cand se stingea. Am hotarat sa dau sonda jos sa incerc sa vad ce e cu ea...Singur nu am putut sa o desurubez, asa ca am inceput sa alerg pe la service-uri sa mi-o dea cineva jos. Dar nu a indraznit nimeni. Explicatie: " Nu se baga nimeni fratica, daca o dai jos se rade filetul si nu mai poti sa o mai pui la loc.Ia alta noua si mai vorbim!" Suparat ca m-au refuzat TOATE service-urile care le-am gasit prin oras, m-am impacat cu ideea si am dat comanda de una noua. Originala ma costa cam 650 lei, deci nici gand! Am gasit in schimb o echivalenta la 306 lei. Am luat-o, montajul facut in service-ul din spatele blocului, la a patra pornire a motorului s-a stins martorul! Ura! Sper sa ramana stins, ca daca nu....
Asta veche arata totusi bine,nu e afumata sau contaminata cu te miri ce, tind cred ca s-o fi desprins un fir de la senzor (nu imi dadea tot timpul raspuns in tensiune atunci cand se incalzea motorul).
Apropo, cand mi-au dat sonda veche jos, chiar s-a distrus filetul. E facut din aluminiu, deci nu au zis rau baietii ca o sa se faca varza la desfiletare.
Multa bafta!

[JynX]

Catalin Punto, on Apr 11 2009, 08:44 PM, said:

Apropo, cand mi-au dat sonda veche jos, chiar s-a distrus filetul. E facut din aluminiu, deci nu au zis rau baietii ca o sa se faca varza la desfiletare.
Multa bafta!

ca necunoscator de sonda intreb daca o dau jos si n-o mai pun ce are? 

[mariusl82]

In principal sonda masoara in mod constant cantitatea de oxigen din gazele evacuate şi trimite semnalul sub forma de voltaj către unitatea de comandă a motorului. ECU (calculatorul central al masinii) foloseste semnalele primite de la sonda pentru a ajusta amestecul in vederea obtinerii amestecului ideal:14,8kg aer cu 1kg benzina, pentru care asa-numitul factor Lambda este egal cu 1. Valorile de iesire ale senzorului variaza intre 0.2 V (amestec sarac) si 0.8 V (amestec bogat), variatia ideala fiind in jurul valorii de 0.45 VRealizarea optima a amestecului asigura o eficienţă şi o durată de viaţă maxime ale catalizatorului. O sondă lambda uzată poate cauza un consum excesiv de benzină, emisii de noxe crescute, uzură excesivă a catalizatorului şi scăderea performanţei motorului.